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| Post 1: My point is, what we consider a classical education, Augustine would have called a modern education. So I guess NSA is promoting modern education... by: Deacon Blues (URL) on 2003-04-13 12:56:55 Post 2: They have a "liberal arts" degree. Do you plan to have anything more specialized? like a Classical Languages? Philosophy? History? Mathematics? The "liberal arts" is great, and I recognize that NSA is new, but I hope that isn't their chief end. Two years of Greek and Latin is a lot better than most programs, but it won't train you to come to the discussion table. by: mike (URL) on 2003-04-14 01:56:40 Post 3: I'm glad for the classes I've taken at NSA, but I'm also equally glad that I've got what might be called a "hard" degree in Math/CS. NSA, I think, is a sort of first strike in the higher ed world for reformed evangelicals. Its best use is probably to provide teachers for classical schools (sans math/sci teachers, unfortunately), and to prep for seminary. To be perfectly frank, it's not focused enough to give you a really good background for advanced studies in, say, literature or history. But you gotta start somewhere, and I'm sure the founders would be glad to see other reformed colleges spring up that specialize in natural philosophy or engineering, as long as they round out their students well. For the vast majority of students, college is the time when you need to specialize. Specialization is unavoidable unless you want to be a lifetime student. Anyhow, I think that when the reformation is further along, students will get the equivalent of NSA /before/ they even reach college. by: jared (URL) on 2003-04-14 16:18:00 Post 4: To echo Jared's comment (which I think is right on the money), I too am glad for the classes I've taken at NSA, especially Peter Leithart's classes. I appreciate NSA if for no other reason than that it brought Drs Leithart and Schuler to Moscow. My only negative point is that the ad is ridiculous. NSA would not be where it is today without financiers and tuition-paying parents who have degrees and careers in specialized, technical fields. But the ad makes it sound like you're inferior if you get a technical education. It also sounds like NSA's ad team has been influenced by the same Christian kitcsh they're quick to mock others for using. "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Major."?! by: jon amos (URL) on 2003-04-14 17:30:44 Post 5: Amen to Jon and Jared. I liked my year at NSA (Dr. Leithart was wonderful) but I'm most thankful for my other degrees. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-14 18:05:07 Post 6: I just wanted to say that I'm embarrassed by the new ads of the type Jon printed here. I wish they would go away - they don't give a good impression of the school. NSA students (at least the ones I know) don't like them. I understand Dr. Atwood is responsible. by: A NSA Student (URL) on 2003-04-15 01:03:52 Post 7: I am all for the liberal arts. I have a degree in art history. But I had to get a graduate degree in library science in order to be able to have a job that puts food on the table. I wonder how ready the young men who get a bachelors degree from NSA are to provide for a family in terms of a salary? What kind of jobs (other that teaching, like you Jon) can a liberal arts graduate do which earn enough to provide for a family? Augustine may not have had a degree in computer science, but he didn't have a family either (at least one that was legitimate and who he provided for.) While Augustine was busy turning the world upside down, he was single and lived in a quasi-monastic community. Augustine pushed the church in the direction of monasticism out of which the liberal arts in the west came into our age. Is this what the liberal arts produce? Virtual monks destined for a single life? I am surely not arguing for monasticism or for an abandonment of the liberal arts, but these practical issues need to be worked out. Young men must be ready to provide for the families they will (hopefully) be head over. by: The Native Tourist (URL) on 2003-04-15 11:24:23 Post 8: I think most (and probably all) guys who go to NSA are aware of the limitations of the degree. Many of the ones who I've known want to be pastors or teachers, so it's not a problem. I've found that my NSA degree is not any more limiting than my friends' history, english, art, or music degrees from major universities. In many jobs, a degree is a degree no matter what it's in or where it came from. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-15 12:55:55 Post 9: have you really, actually found that to be true though christin? are you saying you could go get a job at the same schools someone with a degree from a major university could, to teach, if you wanted to? i doubt i would have had my interviews or interest in hiring me if i just had a degree from nsa. also, i don't think a degree's a degree...it's unfortunate but true...especially in today's society when so many people are going to college and graduating. i think a growing opinion in today's job market is "sure you have a degree...but so what? and from where?" by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 13:42:42 Post 10: But, to NSA's credit - aren't bachelor degrees really interchangeable in the first place? I mean, except for engineering degrees, it seems like the college education is mostly just a union card. It's at the graduate level where the real human capital investment happens. I'd feel comfortable sending a child to a liberal arts college, like NSA, because I would them to then go get a masters in something. A college education really doesn't have much human capital, so you might as well try to get a good education, and then go to graduate school for one's human capital. by: scott cunningham (URL) on 2003-04-15 13:56:29 Post 11: No, I really don't think that bachelors degrees are interchangeable, especially if you are talking about what I was stressing, that of being teachers. I couldn't have a history degree and be able to go teach science at even a christian school like I want to. And yes, more of the "human capital" happens at the masters level, but there is no way I would have been able to get into grad school for a specific masters or PHD program other than english or history or something with just an NSA degree...I needed my bachelors. Yes, a bachelors means less in today's society, but no they are not interchangeable...there are many degrees other than engineering that are specific, and depending on what college you go to can be varied and good. I got my bachelors at DePauw University, a small college in Indiana, and while it has its problems, I got a very well-rounded an quality education...my minor was Classical Studies! And that's just one example... by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 14:19:03 Post 12: UJ, you may not have those interviews if you just had an NSA degree or if you just had your undergrad from DePauw, but you have a masters degree, which changes things significantly. I'm not saying I could go out and apply for an job as a nurse or an accountant or something specialized like that. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have a better job if I had a business degree or if I had graduated from Harvard. All I'm saying is that my NSA degree is just as useful as most B.A.'s from most universities. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-15 14:25:07 Post 13: Right. I missed the part about teaching. I don't know much about that line of work. I'm just saying that, in general, a degree in psychology, or english, or sociology, or even one of the sciences isn't going to make a huge difference on the marketplace. My first job was in market research, and I was an English major. There was pretty much nothing the degree did for me, except that I could write and they seemed to value that. Alot of my friends were liberal arts majors, and for the most part, they had to fight to get jobs just like everyone else. That's mainly what I was saying - the degree is what entry level positions require. As for NSA, in particular. How have graduates there faired? Do most end up becoming teachers at classical schools? Are people failing to get into graduate school because of that pedigree? I don't know much about how the pedigree has negatively or positively affected them, so I'm just curious. by: scott cunningham (URL) on 2003-04-15 14:47:19 Post 14: I definitely agree with you that some schools are going to be more influential on where you get a job than other schools, by the way. I'm just saying - is it pedigree, or major, that matters more? I'm guessing it's probably pedigree more than a specific major that impacts one's first job. But still, the only schools that really matter are going to be top tier schools. I graduated from a state university, and am now in another state university, and I don't know if an NSA graduate is any worse or better off than I was when I was trying to get a job. I'm guessing that employers are going to see, "New. St. Andrews College," then see the major, then look at the resumee and evaluate it from there. How they rate each degree is going to depend, but I can't imagine that any one major is any worse or better than another to a potential employer - when considering entry-level positions, I mean. The degree gets you in the door, and that's about it. by: scott cunningham (URL) on 2003-04-15 14:51:35 Post 15: no christin, that's not true. my masters helped, but the main thing that got me in the door was my bachelors IN CHEMISTRY from an ACCREDITED school. even without my masters, i guarantee i would have had a leg up for a science teacher position at somewhere like ocs, or even if i had a history degree from depauw and was applying for a history teaching position, than the average nsa grad. nsa gives you the edge for teaching at classical education schools, and that's about it. i am not attempting to badmouth nsa in any way...i enjoyed my year there and i think it serves its purpose very well. but i do think that getting a degree from an accredited college or university helps avoid the problem of limitations. scott: i heartily agree with you about non-major-heavy occupations like market research or something like that. my point was about specialized job-hunting such as teaching a particular subject, being a nuclear physicist, stuff like that:) and rare as they may seem, there ARE actually many specialized occupations out there in which major makes a big impact...of course pedigree is a big big factor...but i think major can be too. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 15:01:27 Post 16: i guess my point christin, is just that i don't think you can use the word "most" like you did. sure, nsa degrees are as useful as SOME bachelor degrees...but certainly not most, at least in my experience. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 15:05:22 Post 17: I did have a little bit of trouble getting into grad school. Basically, I did all the things other people do to get into grad school (GRE, applications, etc.), but I was put on a sort of probation. I was supposed to take four 500 level classes which were not suppoesed to count toward my degree, but after taking 2 classes, I petitioned to have them credited to my degree, and the department head approved, so it wasn't really a problem. UJ, Since we were apparently writing those last posts at the same time, I didn't address everything you're saying. I don't think anyone is claiming that a liberal arts degree from NSA is equivalent to a math or science degree. However, it is equivalent to other liberal arts degrees. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-15 15:10:02 Post 18: I don't want to totally knock NSA, but a liberal arts degree from any decent school can be worth more, just because you can spend time really engrossed in a subject, prepping for further study or just for personal edification. For example, you have to have 7 language classes ABOVE THE FOURTH SEMESTER (meaning, all textual reading classes), some in greek and some latin, to earn a degree in Classical Studies from UNC. I think NSA is too broad to prepare for graduate school in any field particularly well. by: kristen (URL) on 2003-04-15 16:59:28 Post 19: I don't think I agree Christin. My experience has shown me that an NSA degree might serve almost as well as say a history or english degree, in the job market, in grad school, etc. but those are just a small piece of the pie. There are many more degrees than just math or science (although those are huge!) that can serve you better when looking for a regular old job, not counting a teaching position at a classical education school. again, i love nsa to death, but it comes up short, unfortunately, in our surrounding culture on some things. and that is not necessarily a bad thing given the state of our society... by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 17:04:44 Post 20: Christin - So, you did have trouble getting into graduate school? What programs were you applying to, and which school did you ultimately decide upon? by: scott cunningham (URL) on 2003-04-15 19:18:09 Post 21: Scott, to answer your question from Post 13: NSA grads have gotten into grad school at UToronto (medieval studies, although this particular student also had a BA in classics from UIdaho); ULouisiana-Monroe (English); UKentucky (Latin); Gonzaga U, Spokane, WA (religion) - transfer to RTS-Orlando (Christian thought); Liberty U, Lynchburg (philosophy); Liberty U (religion) - transfer to St John's College, Annapolis (liberal arts); UDallas (humanities); Regent U, Virginia Beach (law); and our own Christin did a year at Stephen F Austin State U, Nacogdoches, TX (English). I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but that gives you an idea. by: jon amos (URL) on 2003-04-15 19:55:41 Post 22: Josh, I have never once had any potential employer ask if I went to an ACCREDITED college. I'm sure some jobs would require the question (like if I wanted to teach at a University, in which case I would have a masters or Ph. D. which would override the question), but I don't imagine even a local public school would think to ask such a question or care what the answer was. (And I wouldn't feel obligated to volunteer the information.) And I didn't say an NSA degree was the same as most Bachelor's degrees. I said it's the same as most B.A.s. (That means "Bachelor of Arts", for you science majors out there.) I'm not at all saying NSA is for everyone. Of course, it has it's limitations, but I think your complicating something which I, as an NSA grad, have not found to be a big issue. By the way, I found that ad a bit abrasive when I first encountered it, too. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-15 21:47:52 Post 23: First of all Christin, you have only really applied to jobs like a bank, a restaurant and perhaps teaching? Can you make assumptions about the job market specifics from that? I'm just asking. And yeah, that applies to me as well, but as I said to Scott, I'm not really talking about general jobs like marketing, etc...although I think I'm right on those. I'm talking about the WIDE range of specific jobs that rely on a specific degree in a specific area...and I think there are far more of those than you realize or are accounting for. As for your comment "I don't imagine even a local public school would think to ask such a question or care what he answer was", that is just plain wrong. I have put my resume in at several public schools/interviewed at them, and it most certainly IS something they look for and ask about. As far as differentiating between Bachelors degrees and B.A.'s, that's fine. But my point still holds. An NSA degree, at least in my experience would not hold water to even most B.A.'s...my degree in fact IS a B.A.!! I'm not trying to complicate an issue...I'm stating facts I've seen, heard about and experienced in my wide range of public/private education and the job market. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 23:37:51 Post 24: oh, and christin, i'm not attacking you or nsa...i just want to make that clear. i'm merely trying to clarify some things concerning the differences between a degree from an accredited college and nsa...because i've seen both firsthand. i still love ya':) by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-15 23:40:24 Post 25: I'm optimistic for the future of NSA, as long as the board (or whoever runs this joint) doesn't become content on the one degree. I think if they were to fit the "liberal arts" into two years and have the final two for intense specialization, or beef up the Classical Christian schools to the extent that (like the English schools) your highschool education is good enough, great things can happen. I was astounded to see in my study of past, great mathematicians how many of them were raised in the Church and received a Classical education. I've often lamented to Kristen that I feel that only now, after three years of study (and now fulfilling all my degree requirements in Classics), I have finally received the education I was suppose to receive growing up. I should now begin my college studies. That is why Oxford doesn't have "general requirements", you were supposed to get all your GE's in high school. by: mike (URL) on 2003-04-16 01:24:15 Post 26: I'm not trying to argue this to the ground. I just want to say one last time, that I realize an NSA degree has its limitations. I realize there are MANY jobs that rely on specific degrees which NSA will not prepare you for. I realize that a liberal arts degree from NSA is not an extremely marketable degree. I agree with Jared and Mike that the things I learned at NSA should be learned in highschool. I agree with Kristen that a degree in NSA doesn't prepare you for grad school in specific areas a well as it could. I think the world would not be a good place if everyone only had liberal arts degrees from NSA. However, in my experience, as an NSA graduate, in comparing my NSA liberal art degree with people I know who have specific liberal arts degrees (history, music, english, philosophy, and art), I don't feel deficient. My job is just as good as the jobs most of them have. Of course, I have limited experience, Josh, I'm only 23. I haven't applied to a lot of jobs, but just from my observation in the bank, I can see how MANY jobs are available to me. Of course there are many more jobs that are not available to me. By "MANY", I'm not saying "a majority," I'm just saying I have A LOT of options. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-16 10:50:28 Post 27: Yep, you are absolutely right Christin. You have many opportunities with an NSA degree, and I agree with everything in your last statement. Really, we don't disagree much. I was just taking issue with your statement in one of your first posts where you said an nsa degree is equivalent to MOST degrees at MOST universities, and your assumption about public schools and bacelors degrees...because i don't think that's quite accurate, that's all. again, i think nsa is good, it serves its purpose well. i think your degree from nsa will serve you VERY well in the future, and it already has. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-16 12:06:00 Post 28: I said: "most B.A.s," which is very different from saying, "most degrees." But I'm glad we can agree on some things. Thank you and good night. by: Christin (URL) on 2003-04-16 12:44:05 Post 29: yeah, you said most b.a.'s. but i remind you again that my degree was a b.a.---in chemistry. so i still don't agree with your statement about most b.a.'s, as different as it may be from the "most degrees" thing. by: Uncle Josh (URL) on 2003-04-16 14:34:18 Post 30: Well, I certainly didn't mean to stir the pot there at NSA, which I didn't mention on Andrew's site, by the way, although I have greatly enjoyed reading this healthy discussion. Nor do I discount the value of a liberal arts education, as I think you'll see if you read the article closely. What I said is that to offer this as a preferred career direction with the suggestion that it's "the biblical" way -- especially for young men who presumably will get married and support a family --is dangerous stuff if you have any intention of becoming more than a bank teller, a Christian school teacher, or intend to somehow -- like Augustine -- work in and through the Church and/or go on into the ministry or teach in higher education. These are all legitimate callings, of course, but they respresent a bare smattering of what we have available to us and, I'm afraid, we are grossly misrepresented -- as Andrew rightly pointed out in his article -- in those other areas that are future rather than past oriented (hard sciences, technology, international business and affairs, etc.)from a worldview perspective, yes, but even more basic, from any perspective. Characterizing jobs merely functionally will not lend understanding, either. There are accountants and CFO's of multinational companies; there are marketing assistants (little more than secreatries) and Marketing VP's for companies like Intel or IBM that make high six-figure salaries; there are attorneys who barely make a living writing wills and corporate or political counsel in very exciting, interesting and lucartive positions. Two options, really: One is the start from scratch model, which NSA seems to be taking -- of value, no doubt, although to follow this model without wavering means a looooong time before we catch up with what's important "out there." The other is the engagement model -- a kind of Josepph in Egypt thing right now -- which, from my experience, few beginners feel comfortable with, and understandably so. And yet, no pain, no gain, no? Despite our making fun of fundamentalists, how much different are we in our career choices and expectations? That's, I think, what Andrew was driving at. A point to ponder -- especially for young men not called to ministry, education, etc. Cheers, Gerry W. by: Gerry Wisz (URL) on 2003-04-16 16:32:53 Post 31: UPDATE: I have removed the Adam Sandler/SNL "Who were the ad wizards[...]?" quote. I apologize for any offense I caused by posting it. by: jon amos (URL) on 2003-04-18 01:14:11 Post 32: Oh, my. That was the most enjoyable (and perhaps illuminating)part of the post. Oh, well. GW by: Gerry Wisz (URL) on 2003-04-18 17:40:37 Post 33: This is my dream education for the Strausslings, once they have read enough at home: a four year liberal arts programme not unlike that offered by St. John's College, but from a genus Reformed, species Kuyperian (subspecies Vollenhovian) perspective, followed by an appropriate professional degree (politics? poetry?), followed by University of Chicago Committee on Social Thought PhD. Hmmmm-yum-yum. by: Gideon Strauss (URL) on 2003-04-21 16:41:50 Post 34: Hm. Interesting combo. I'd say St. John's, in its current form, wouldn't be out of the question. Don't know about U of Ch. except for economics, maybe 30 yrs ago, when Friedman was still there -- tho' social thought program looks intriguing. Was this similar to your educational path, G.S.? by: Gerry Wisz (URL) on 2003-04-22 16:51:27 Post 35: Not remotely! The only part of my undergraduate education that I do not regret is philosophy (incl. ethics and aesthetics), which was resolutely Dooyeweerdian, and which also included what we called "the text lab," in which we did slow reading of authors then current, such as MacIntyre, Rorty, Eco, Bernstein. My graduate work, which was all reading and dissertation writing, is when I got my real education, mostly by reading outside the scope of my immediate academic concerns ... but I still did not do a rigorous enough reading of really important books while I had the time. Now, for most of my undergraduate and graduate years I also held down a full-time job, mostly not in university settings, so I did not quite enjoy the "tensed leisure" (as Cal Seerveld calls it) appropriate to the kind of learning I advocate. But that's not to the point .... by: Gideon Strauss (URL) on 2003-04-23 14:52:16 Post 36: Know what you mean about the full-time thing while in grad school. I was a mgr. editor of a magazine w/ 200k subscribers while trying to finish my PhD, which is why I never finished it. Real life. So where'd you go? Dordt? by: Gerry Wisz (URL) on 2003-04-23 18:19:45 |